Why VW May Be Punished More Harshly Than GM, Takata, Toyota, Ford Etc.

"LongbowMkII" (longbowmkii) 09/23/2015 at 10:44 • Filed to: None

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It essentially boils down to the fact that VW ran afoul of the wrong government agency. The EPA has a huge amount of power compared to the NHTSA.

NHTSA:

EPA:

Now you may disagree on the hows and whys these agencies have their powers, but that’s truly inconsequential. The fact is that the EPA has more power to levy larger fines and enforce regulations.

I’m just tired of the rationale that just because the NHTSA was limited in its punitive powers (a fact most people lament) that the EPA would somehow be wrong in penalizing VW an appropriate amount. If the EPA only fined VW $35 million for this you know that every automotive engineering department from Detroit to Stuttgart would be redesigning ALL of their engines to maximize the much more marketable horsepower and fuel economy at the possible expense of emissions. The fines and penalties have to hurt more than cheating the test could help. Every manufacturer should read the penalties on Jalopnik, and think, “Fuck that noise. That’s not worth it.” Wanting VW to receive a harsh penalty for this is in no way equating VW’s “mistake” with GM’s. GM should have been penalized much more harshly than they were, but the fact is that they legally couldn’t. That probably has nothing to do with decades of influence of domestic automakers on the laws and agencies that regulate them.

Clean (ish) air is an important resource and it should be protected. A slight slap on the wrist like GM received would lead to bad air (and health problems) for EVERYONE, not just the sad sap stuck in a Chevrolet Cobalt.

Punk_Girl_98 > LongbowMkII 09/23/2015 at 10:52

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Is OSHA a part of the EPA? That group is very strict.

Ash78, voting early and often > LongbowMkII 09/23/2015 at 10:52

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I will slightly disagree in that the negative press will probably do far more damage than the fines. Public humiliation still counts for a lot — think of it like points on your license vs speeding fines. Anyone with deep pockets can pay fines, but if the points start racking up, you start paying more attention.

Fines or no fines, I think this puts everyone on notice.

DrScientist > LongbowMkII 09/23/2015 at 10:54

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for those of us not willing to do the googling, can you briefly outline the limits of nhtsa, their ability to penalize the industry, with a brief comparison to the epa’s authority?

also, which department do each of these groups fall under?

last question, can’t the doj/attorney general file a suit itself? (dont know if this question even makes sense. dammit, jim, i’m a doctor.)

Your boy, BJR > LongbowMkII 09/23/2015 at 10:56

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I really hope we tap into that post world war (either) rage we seem to dish out to Germany when it comes to this. Down with VW, may their image be forever tarnished.

LongbowMkII > Ash78, voting early and often 09/23/2015 at 10:57

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Considering the lack of impact on GM sales after all the recalls, I’m not sure public humiliation is enough anymore. People (and corporations) will endure quite a bit of humiliation if the money keeps rolling in.

Ash78, voting early and often > LongbowMkII 09/23/2015 at 11:02

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If that’s truly the case, then maybe fines should be levied Finland-style: In proportion to a firm’s cash flow and/or total equity. I find that to be a scary level of regulation, personally.

I’m more a fan of making them temporarily ban diesel sales (maybe even for a certain number of years AFTER it’s resolved) and let the income and reputation take the resulting hit. Match the punishment to the crime more directly and reduce all the handwringing about how much is fair vs unfair in damages. Think about sports penalties — making people sit out games usually hurts worse than what they have to pay.

I don’t know if it’s still the case, but a lot of industrial firms just pay EPA penalties and keep doing business as usual, dumping waste into rivers, etc. So there are always cases where fines alone also don’t work.

Some combo of the two will be the right answer.

BigBlock440 > LongbowMkII 09/23/2015 at 11:03

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Someone from Dodge said they could have tuned the Hellcat to over 850 hp, but had to back it down to 700 to pass emissions. If the max fine is $37k per car, I think they should have done it. Bump the price up $10k for that extra 100+hp and all the extra publicity for an even more ridiculous hp number, I think they would have come out ahead.

Of course all that’s without knowing any specifics with the EPA fine structure itself.

jariten1781 > Punk_Girl_98 09/23/2015 at 11:06

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OSHA is Department of Labor. EPA is its own weird thing (cabinet level but not part of the cabinet).

LongbowMkII > DrScientist 09/23/2015 at 11:08

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Well the NHTSA could only fine GM a maximum of$35 million after all that they did, while the potential maximum from the EPA appears to be $18 billion.

The NHTSA is a part of the DOT while the EPA is not directly under a department.

I think in these large profile cases different departments and agencies work together, but I’m fairly ignorant of bureaucratic law.

wiffleballtony > LongbowMkII 09/23/2015 at 11:12

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I’m not going to say that GMs behavior is in any way excusable, however considering how many cars they sold a year and only a hundred thirty or so people passed was probably statistically insignificant compared to how many other deaths people received while driving. Probably why it took so long for an investigation to come forward.

LongbowMkII > Ash78, voting early and often 09/23/2015 at 11:13

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very true about paying the fines while still polluting, and the reason why you can’t use the NHTSA punishment of GM as a yardstick for the EPA’s punishment of VW. Every automaker would just ignore emissions and pay the tiny (relatively) fine.

LongbowMkII > BigBlock440 09/23/2015 at 11:16

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They could have done something like that. Have a “don’t push this button if you don’t want your ECU reflashed for an extra 150hp” button.

Dodge: What do you mean this is illegal? It passed the test!

BigBlock440 > LongbowMkII 09/23/2015 at 11:22

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That being said, there’s a black key and a red key, other cars have different modes (race, sport, eco, etc), I wonder if they have to pass in all of them. Would a “track only” mode needs to pass EPA tests? I assume they do if the car’s used on the road at all, but would the EPA even test it.

LongbowMkII > BigBlock440 09/23/2015 at 11:26

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I would hope so, but who knows? I could definitely see someone testing a car only in eco mode and not giving it a second thought.

Sneaky Pete > LongbowMkII 09/23/2015 at 11:31

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You mean, like the BOSS 302 red key Ford included along with the regular black key?

Tohru > LongbowMkII 09/23/2015 at 12:34

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Oh fuck off with the GM hateboner. You know why they had so many lock cylinder issues? Because people have big-ass keychains now and the lock cylinder isn’t meant for that much weight. You put 15 keys, 3 keyfobs, 4 keychains, and a lanyard hanging off your ignition cylinder, it’s going to wear the fucker out. I’ve known people with vehicles made by just about every mainstream manufacturer that have had worn-out lock cylinders. Either they carry a fuckload of keys, or the vehicle was quite old. My dad had a 1980 F150 that you could take the key out while it was running - and that ignition cylinder was 100% metal. Shit wears out, and it wears out a lot faster when you put unnecessary strain on it. A couple keys and a fob is a lot less strain than 3lbs. of keys.

LongbowMkII > Tohru 09/23/2015 at 12:51

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It’s hardly a hate boner. While yes, the extra keychain weight contributed to the issue, that was not the case when it was first discovered at the prototype stage. The ignition was prone to failure primarily due to a bad design. Which was ignored. Then covered up. Then dealt with nearly 10 years later after dozens of avoidable deaths. Ignoring defective parts that put people’s lives at risk should be punishable by more than $35 million.